vBulletin 4 Revisited
There’s been so much negative information being bandied around about vBulletin/Internet Brands of late that I felt I would add my voice and revisit my initial post regarding the upgrade to vB4.
In an article posted by The Register, which to be honest I really begrudge linking to but without it my following comments won’t make much sense, it was claimed that IB has banned multiple paying customers from their support forums. Granted, that was true, but the slant put on this article was that because they were banned from the forum (for ranting, abusing and generally being pains in the arses all ove r the place) they were not, at any time, banned from using the Support Ticket system which is the official means for getting support for a vBulletin forum.
The Register claimed that they contacted vB’s GM, Ray Morgan, who didn’t bother replying to them. What they fail to add there is that they didn’t give him long to actually formulate a response to the claims being made and, you’d think, being a so-called reporting site, they would understand that you can’t just fire off replies without first taking in what’s being said. There was absolutely nothing inexplicable about the bannings. It was quite obvious the reasons behind the bannings was due to the amount of disruption these particular customers were causing on the forum. So trying to paint these people as innocent is completely and utterly wrong. They also quoted figures relating to the fees charged by vB and are inaccurate about them too. The actual pricing can be found HERE.
It amused me that The Register didn’t even bother to try and see the other side of things. They could have contacted any number of happy vB customers for the alternative view of the way things are going. But that wouldn’t have achieved the response they wanted at all, of course, but I’m pretty sure they’ll be disappointed anyway as they’ve really done nothing more than make the majority of vB customers look derisively upon their article and the “anonymous” people who’ve complained to them.
Moving on from the idiocy above, IB released vB4 beta 1 on their own forum a week ago. There was quite a lengthy downtime while they ensured everything was working correct and, as is the norm, there was a multitude of rumours flying around over the reasons behind it. I won’t claim to know what was going on behind the scenes, but once the forum came back online everything was in place.
It’s actually been nice watching the changes that have been made to the forum over the past week in response to comments/suggestions from the customers using the support forums. And who’d have believed a single week could have evolved vB4 to such a large extent.
I’ve been lucky enough to be a part of the alpha/beta team and, while I cannot talk about what I know or have seen away from what’s visible on the forums currently, I would like to see it’s been an exciting time and I’m confident that there are good things to come!
My support stays with vB/IB and Ray Morgan and while I do think some situations could (and should) have been handled differently, I am of the view that IB is genuine in wanting vBulletin to remain the best forum software available and that the mistakes that have been made, have been done so because they are still finding their feet.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m looking forward to running vB4 on my forums.
© 2009, Azhria Lilu. All rights reserved.
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Tagged with: bannings • complaints • customers • IB • internet brands • rumours • The Register • upgrades • vB • vB4 • vBulletin
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Excellent post!
Admittedly, I succumbed to the article by the Register, but when I asked about it, those claims were quickly refuted by Wayne Luke. A member of staff who I know I can trust, and one who doesn’t beat around the bush.
Once again, great post. Expect a Retweet from me, good lady.
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Thanks Ryan. It’s so easy to believe media hype – but I find if I read everything posted by any kind of media with a good dose of disbelief, and then go off and read three or four different accounts – it’s easier to get a good balanced view
I never trust an article that’s completely one-sided. I like to see both sides before making a decision.
So, you’re saying that my expired owned license being worth only 25$ now is fair?
Sure some people have been banned for being rude or more vocal. In some situations, some people need to shell out thousands of dollars within a 2 week period to take part of the promotion.
IB’s stock is down almost 10% today. Looks like other people are in agreement with the ‘vocal minority’…
Maybe from your point of view, you weren’t affected by these changes as much, but you have to put yourself in other people’s shoes and then you may judge what is right or wrong. You obviously didn’t.
Did I comment on the price being fair at any point? Don’t believe I actually went into my opinions on costs at all, in fact hmmmm?
I can’t afford to upgrade my two licences currently – christmas is coming and my kids come first. I’m not judging anybody other than the media hounds who are taking one side. As I stated (if you read it carefully one word at a time) I did actually say that they’ve made some bad decisions and should have handled things better… or did I imagine that part of the post?
Incidently, check out the last couple of years stock records for them… it’s dropped lower than what it is now before.
And one more thing, at least have the balls to use a valid email address since we both know you’re not an admin at vbulletin.com
I believe the Article at the Register is correct …
If those users upgrade to vb4 forums only, then the only method they have for support will be the forums.
If they are banned from the forums, then they obviously cannot request assistance should they need it.
Honestly, if IB cared about vBulletin (I know they do in terms of a cash cow, but not maintaining it as the “best” forum software) most of what has and is going on wouldn’t and shouldn’t have happened.
Even the people who still trust Internet Brands with vBulletin will soon realize it’s blind faith, and slowly that is happening. If they don’t, well they deserve to have money taken from them and receive sub-par software – because that’s what vBulletin 4 really is, and that’s what vB5 will be (and they’re already planning on vB5, so start saving money for a new vB5 license).
They don’t care about old customers, they just want new ones. That’s their target, and hopelessly waiting and watching and believe that it will get better isn’t going to help.
It’s not the first time Internet Brands has exploited and ruined company/community strictly for financial gain and it won’t be the last. It’s how they do business, so pay up or get out.
D’you know something – yu’re one of a few people I can count that I actually respect the opinion of (that sounds terrible, doesn’t it, but it’s not meant to be).
Maybe I just have faith that it is as I believe and that they’ve mishandled things and are learning from the mistakes.
My previous comment was directed at Reeve (no offence Dave, you posted as I hit enter).
Dave, I haven’t had any dealings with Internet Brands, but I know people who have spoken to Ray and I can only go on what my own experiences interacting with him has given me.
My opinion is just as valid as the negative ones
I’ve heard the same as well when it comes to dealing with Ray – but that’s the thing. Sweet talk and market speak will make you believe anything, as while I’m pretty sure Ray’s a good guy, Internet Brands aren’t so generous and it is THEY who make the decisions, no Ray–he just carries them out.
I honestly wish I could believe IB would pull through, but seeing Kier, Scott, Mike, Floris, Ashley, Kerry-anne and few others jump shit just before the crap hit the fan… doesn’t that tell you anything?
Nice article,a breath of fresh air after all the VB bashing
not saying they are innocent mind you but not sure if all the bashing is justified either 
Dave,
I don’t pretend to know the reasons behind Kier, Scott, etc jumping ship – yes it looked bad – but we don’t know exactly what went on.
As for vB4 being substandard, I can guarantee that it’s not. I know that firsthand.
Prabh – thank you. I agree that they’re not entirely innocent, but my reason for posting this was because I don’t believe the amount of bashing that’s being done is justified.
As one of those who was banned, I can clear up some confusion here.
Those who were banned DID NOT lose access to download the actual software, nor did we lose access to the ticketing system.
We were banned from vBulletin.com, and our “priorty forum support” in the members area was disabled. What this does is (a) prevents us from signing up a new forum account that can access the support forums, and (b) prevents us from downloading modifications on vbulletin.org (although we were not actually banned from that site, we just couldn’t access the modifications).
My vbulletin.org access was restored the following day after I contacted Wayne via Admin Addict. Ray later agreed to restore my forum access too.
vB4 is far from what it should be, and that’s all on IB (dig into quotes from ex-staff recently and you’ll see quite a bit of what really happened–it’s not pretty). vB4 IS sub-par and in the worst ways.
Since the leaked info, I decided IB was not going to get my money, and time and time again since that they’ve proven my decision wise. I just don’t see them recovering from this and getting vB’s reputation back to where it was ever again.
If the departing staff had done their jobs and delivered vBulletin 4.0 in June 2008 like was promised during the merger, then things would have been much different. Instead their lack of deadlines and unrealistic goals undid what they wanted to do.
Thanks Mark.
Dave, I just feel that this whole situation is having a ridiculous snowball effect and things are getting blown out of all proportion.
vB4 is actually a very good product and getting better by the day – I’ve used it (and not just the front end – and I know it’s current capabilities.
But we’re both entitled to our opinions, so we’ll have to agree to disagree
I have no problem with you sharing your opinion here either.
I don’t think vB4 is sub-par. Even in my worst ranty moments, I think I was fairly consistent in saying that I never doubted the product would deliver.
I had issues with other things. But you have to move on sometimes and start again. You can’t change the past, only the future.
I think the only safe-haven for vB4 is because it’s built on the vB3 engine and that’s why it is somewhat good – because what we’re used to hasn’t changed, just the looks and about 4 new features.
I’m sure some people will still use vB even after all this, but alas, what can you do? Hehe… but you chose your road and I have mine.
However, I was just letting you know so perhaps you could do some more digging and get some more info about what has happened (enough information is out there finally to be able to get a clear picture of what happened) and have a vB4 revisited revisited entry sometimes in the future. :p Although I recommend everyone do that before making a choice and sticking with it.
Oh I always dig and I always read. Currently my stance is as I’ve stated – that’s not to say my stance won’t change should something happen to convince me otherwise but from what I’ve seen of vB4 so far and my dealings with Ray and the team – I’m happy to give them my support. Can’t give them my money right now as I don’t have any LOL
Excellent post, Azhria Lilu. Thanks!
I am one of the paying customer’s who was banned.
“they were not, at any time, banned from using the Support Ticket system which is the official means for getting support for a vBulletin forum.”
This claim is false. vBulletin has not responded to a single ticket since I was banned, and originally they disabled my access to mods at vb.org. They only re-enabled it because they had to legally. (At least, that’s the implication from the last response I received from vBulletin).
Not only that, but I was not being disruptive. A pain in the ass? Probably, and rightfully so, but not disruptive or inflammatory. The post that I was banned for I spent a great deal of care making sure the post I wrote (and was banned for) was not inflammatory or would have any reason to be deleted. Even though it was written in that way, apparently it was very offensive to Ray Morgan and the vB crew and I was promptly banned. (Presumably for saying they made really bad mistakes in the launch of vB4).
The official reason for the ban: I said in the post to create context that they had lost me as a customer, but that I thought they should hear why I was leaving.
In the ban reason, they quoted that, and said they are taking me at my word.
In other words, banned me because they knew I was not going to be spending any more money with them.
Do not make assumptions about how the company is treating other people or what they have done.
Again, they haven’t responded to any of my support tickets, nor is Wayne answering questions on other forums, as he was. They probably told him to stop posting once the register article hit.
You sit there and tell me not to make assumptions, yet you make 3 that I can see in that single post. Hypocritcal, I feel.
Assumption 1 – “his claim is false. vBulletin has not responded to a single ticket since I was banned, and originally they disabled my access to mods at vb.org. They only re-enabled it because they had to legally. (At least, that’s the implication from the last response I received from vBulletin).”
Have you considered the fact that they are simply busy or feel that your support ticket isn’t as important as others they have received? The fact that you can even submit a support ticket says you’re not banned from using it. So, therefore, your claim is the false one.
Assumption 2 – “In other words, banned me because they knew I was not going to be spending any more money with them.”
Wrong – you laid down a challenge and told them you were leaving, they gave you a helping hand by removing your access. After all, if you were leaving you had no reason to return to the forums, surely?
Assumption 3 – “Again, they haven’t responded to any of my support tickets, nor is Wayne answering questions on other forums, as he was. They probably told him to stop posting once the register article hit.”
Again, you’re jumping to a conclusion that you do not know for sure. You are making a claim of your own to keep this ridiculous rumour-mongering going. Consider the fact that Wayne might just be tired of constantly repeating himself and has washed his hands of you.
When you can post honestly – without assumptions – and making demands that other people tow your line, then feel free to return and discuss it like an adult
After answering the assumptions azhir (whatever your name is), how do things look now? Tell us how much you paid for a software upgrade that looks to be built by children? LMAO.
You can see how much I paid as the fees are there in black and white on the vBulletin homepage. Or can’t you read facts and have to distort it in your head to make it say something else?
Things look perfectly fine on the vB front to me. I’m actually very happy with the way the software is progressing, although there is still room for improvement in some areas.
Azhria Lilu
The whole point of this fiasco is that damage has been done to vbulletin, whatever the rights and wrongs of the matter. Many Customers are not taking the vb4 forced offer, by that I mean they are not dancing to IB’s timeline and are sitting back to see what comes out of it. I agree there is a snowball effect and it does seem to be having at least a partial effect on IB shares, nearly 10% down today alone.
I feel like all this is being handled VERY poorly but the customer side, not to mention this sudden pricing scheme was also handled poorly by the IB staff, but that’s about it.
Customers wanted a new look, they hate it. Funny thing though, everyone has different tastes and at one point you will modify your board at your liking. Customers wanted to see a live demo on the boards, therefore literally pushing vB to release an early BETA, you guys keep pushing they will feel pressured, not because IPB is going lower, why the hell you think IPB has to lower their prices to lure customers??? Why couldn’t they do it with the normal prices? To be more affordable? Hell no, because they know vB customers, at the moment are heated and low prices seem awesometastically, they aren’t.
The new price scheme is actually pretty good. You pay once and don’t have to pay until the next major version(vB5.0). People are wayyyy getting ahread of themselves by speculating the prices on vB5.0. Unless you have a time machine, and if you do please share, how the hell do you know and are so sure about the pricing scheme?
People are saying they’re leaving, they shouldn’t need the support or the mod forums at all, they’re leaving vBulletin after all, no?
Yes, yes, IB should have mentioned something, but if you let your license expire you would have had to pay full price.
Anyways, this has blown up more than a helium balloon, I didn’t know so many vB users were so childish.
Jim, IAB – I can’t argue with any of the points either of you make. Thank you for taking the time to make them!
I was actually agreeing with you, Azhria. I think this is a great post and people should really stop the bashing against vB, they’re looking childish.
This is a great post, I couldn’t agree with you more.
I was upset with the vBulletin 4.0 news and how iNet handled it at first as well. It’s time to move on, the 4.0 style on vb.com is looking better and better every day. I pre-orded the suit because I like the vBulletin blogs and I didn’t want to lose that.
I also have a IPB forum to play with, both are great scripts and both have a long history of excellence.
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I’m with Brandon on this, my position is exactly the same.
I was annoyed at first (“Really?” I hear everyone cry! You don’t say!). But now I have bought my license, and I realise I personally haven’t done badly out of it. Plus, I really like the progress on vB4 and it’s going to be considerably better than I thought it would be.
You were? Really? But you were such a quiet soul, Mark :p
Thanks Brandon. That means a lot, coming from you!
In all honesty, I don’t think the bans placed on members/consumers of vBulletin were because of negative or vocal feedback.
Think about it this way, no matter how good a company is, there will always be 1 or more persons to complain about the company. If a company attempts (they’re never successful, unless they hire trained hitmen) silence its consumers, it won’t reflect very well. The mass influx of people complaining about certain features or bugs, and the addition of people who joined vBulletin.com just to troll probably caused the staff the use a “Ban and then inspect” case-by-case ban tactic. Of course, given this is The Register, the British equivalent of the National Inquirer, a gossip tabloid magazine here in the United States, you’re going to get false information. I was sent a link to The Register’s article, and after reading it a few times, I found quite a few errors in the article. Errors that place Internet Brands and its subsidiaries in negative light.
I firmly believe Internet Brands can pull Jelsoft up from what wreck or lack thereof it is in right now and go back to competing with other top-end software, such as what IPS offers. No software is perfect during its development stage, vBulletin is by far no exception to this rule.
And this is all coming from an IPS customer.
Just a general thought then: What happens to customers under the new license agreement? If forum support is their only means of getting vBulletin support later, how will they receive it if they are banned?
How about by doing as Mark did and discussing it with a vB staff member like an adult instead of running round like a headless chicken screaming for attention? Worked for Mark, he got all his access back, simply by being calm and polite about things and he’ll be the first to say he still doesn’t agree with everything that was done and said.
Mark B is a sell out. They guy should have stood to his guns and not let those thugs at vbulletin continue bullying people. Don’t be like him. Azhria Lilu is also a sell out. He continues to kiss these peoples asses and now their world is falling apart. Ray morgan Resigns and now bob need’s to clean a few more staff members out of the picture and things will turn around. As long as people keep kissing there asses, they will continue to have a nasty taste in their mouths.
Hows’ the taste Azhria? Taste like shit?
He’s a she, lovey. Might want to sort your facts out before making yourself look any more stupid… if that’s possible.
First: To imply they happened just because of negative feedback is ridiculous. To see that one just have to read the forums. There’s lots of negative feedback; I hardly know of a company that would allow that on their company forums.
Second: The bannings of users at vb.com where completely justified in my opinion. They did not happen because of negative feedback, but the absolutely unbearable sassy, rude and often insulting and scathing way it was brought forward. There is lot of (justified) criticism on the forums, but one can criticise in a civilized manner.
Third: Since it was not criticism, but simple and plain bad behaviour, bordering on, if not actual trolling, my concern for the support of those persons could not be less. They have several routes to go: buy the suite and use ticket support; buy the forum and shell out another 80 bucks for ticket support; or rethink their position, make an excuse for their ranting, voice criticism in a civilised manner in the future and regain forum access.
Now, flame me.
I find it unusual how people seem to forget that we have been begging for a cms for years. If it weren’t for IB, there would be no cms. If it weren’t for IB, there probably wouldn’t be any social networking features. The old Jelsoft did not listen to customers when it came to adding social networking features and a cms. The promised cms from the old Jelsoft never came. Read the old threads. They still exists. The old Jelsoft claimed we would have 4.0 by Q2. It never came. IB is fumbling playing catch up and hiring people to help. Their approach with some things are not to everyone’s taste, but at least we are FINALLY MOVING FORWARD! Forums are not king. Facebook, Myspace, Twitter, and others GIVE what we have begged for. It’s no wonder we are not as thriving communities as we once were. I am uncertain what IB’s actions will be, but I am certain we are at least FINALLY moving forward! If you disagree, there are alternatives. Why waste our time posting to every thread at vb.com with your complaints. SOme of us are sick of you hijacking our threads with bullshit complaints. We heard you a thousand times and you have ruined our experience with your rants. I commend the bans! In offline businesses they would have been arrested for harassing the business and the other customers. No manners! No respect for anyone else who tries to get answers and tries to offer good comments. They deserved the ban! They would have banned themselves from their own website!!!!!
If you were banned, would you “bitch” about it? Would you be upset over the fact you didn’t really deserve it? How many companies have done everything their users’ complaints have asked for? Right – that’s what I thought.
You are correct. They too would be upset. Everything was kept in the licensed feedback section and not out in the open. Steve machol is a punk and needs to go back to performing eye exams, not being a rude manager of an internet software site.
Not sure who wrote the above article, but you my friend are full of shit. I was one of the customers that were banned from vbulletin.com and i was banned for asking questions. I still don’t understand how come i am being bullied into buying software i don’t want and i also think it’s wrong of vbulletin to ban customers from the licensed feedback forums. I kept all of my comments in a section of the site which i thought was for open discussions about my thoughts on what was happening. Steve machol is a punk and has gone on a rampage, banning people whom object to his way of thinking. He is making it look like everyone is happy as customers at vb.com about the new pricing scheme and the forced loss of previous software customers have purchased.
So again, please get your facts straight and quit trying to make things look like it is just our fault for being banned by that thug steve machol. I am a paying customer and i am very unhappy with the things team IB is trying to force upon us as customers. As an unhappy customer, to steve machol, you sir are an ass. Hopefully oneday, your boss will see through you and see how you have managed to hide how you treat people behind your keyboard.
I’d have thought it was obvious who wrote the article, seeing as it’s got my name all over it.
I remember you and the questions you asked on vb.com forums and, to be blunt, I’d have banned you long before the vB staff did – your posts are aggressive, full of attitude, abusive and insulting. I’d take a long hard look at the way you portray yourself before casting stones about people. My facts are straight – as I’m a regular member of vB. Maybe if you’d been adult in your responses you wouldn’t have been banned, but I don’t actually think you’re capable of reacting like an adult which I’m pretty sure you’ll prove if you respond to me.
Thank you for posting.
What ever. You really don’t have a clue of what happened. You are more then welcome to assume you know what is actually taking place, but ray morgan is gone. Now they need to get rid of a couple more moderators, hire a real manager and things will actually turn around.
*yawn* How old are you? 16? Go live a little and expand your mind.
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Hi,
New here. Need some help Well, actually Ms. Boots had five kittens.
My wife gave all but one away. She says she gets to name it, I say I do because I take care of all the others. haha
Any good websites for finding cat names?
thank you